>> MY FAVORITE. NOW. NOW. >> WELCOME BACK, EVERYONE. >> WELCOME BACK, EVERYONE. FOR NEARLY 50 YEARS, AMERICA'S FOR NEARLY 50 YEARS, AMERICA'S HERRING FISHERMEN HAVE BEEN HERRING FISHERMEN HAVE BEEN REQUIRED TO TAKE FEDERAL REQUIRED TO TAKE FEDERAL INSPECTORS ON THEIR BOATS WHEN INSPECTORS ON THEIR BOATS WHEN THEY GO OUT TO SEA. THEY GO OUT TO SEA. BUT RECENTLY, THE GOVERNMENT BUT RECENTLY, THE GOVERNMENT WENT A STEP FURTHER, ASKING WENT A STEP FURTHER, ASKING THEM TO PAY THEIR SALARIES THEM TO PAY THEIR SALARIES AS WELL. AS WELL. THE MOVE HAS PROMPTED A MAJOR THE MOVE HAS PROMPTED A MAJOR LEGAL BATTLE. LEGAL BATTLE. AND AT THE SUPREME COURT THIS AND AT THE SUPREME COURT THIS FALL, THE FISHERMEN WILL ASK FALL, THE FISHERMEN WILL ASK THE JUSTICES TO REEL THE JUSTICES TO REEL IN GOVERNMENT POWER A BIG WAY. IN GOVERNMENT POWER A BIG WAY. IN TONIGHT'S PRIME FOCUS, IN TONIGHT'S PRIME FOCUS, OUR DEVIN DWYER TAKES A LOOK. OUR DEVIN DWYER TAKES A LOOK. >> THE STAKES, WHICH COULD >> THE STAKES, WHICH COULD STRETCH FAR BEYOND THE OCEAN. STRETCH FAR BEYOND THE OCEAN. THIS IS THE RADAR THAT HELPS THIS IS THE RADAR THAT HELPS TO FIND THE FISH MORE OR LESS. TO FIND THE FISH MORE OR LESS. IT LOOKS STRAIGHT UNDER IT LOOKS STRAIGHT UNDER THE BOAT AND IT SEES WHATEVER'S THE BOAT AND IT SEES WHATEVER'S UNDER THE BOAT. UNDER THE BOAT. >> IN CAPE MAY, NEW JERSEY, >> IN CAPE MAY, NEW JERSEY, THE HUNT FOR NORTH THE HUNT FOR NORTH ATLANTIC HERRING, A FAMILY ATLANTIC HERRING, A FAMILY AFFAIR. AFFAIR. YOU'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR YOU'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR YEARS. YEARS. YOU LOVE IT? YOU LOVE IT? YEAH. YEAH. >> AND I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO >> AND I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO ANYTHING ELSE. ANYTHING ELSE. >> STEVEN AXELSSON, >> STEVEN AXELSSON, HIS GRANDFATHER, EMIGRATED HERE HIS GRANDFATHER, EMIGRATED HERE FROM SWEDEN IN 1954. FROM SWEDEN IN 1954. HELPING HIS SEASIDE COMMUNITY HELPING HIS SEASIDE COMMUNITY BLOSSOM INTO A BASE FOR FAMILY BLOSSOM INTO A BASE FOR FAMILY FISHING BUSINESSES. FISHING BUSINESSES. THE WATERS OFF THE COAST THE WATERS OFF THE COAST ARE HOME TO SCORES OF LONG, ARE HOME TO SCORES OF LONG, THIN SQUID AND ATLANTIC THIN SQUID AND ATLANTIC HERRING, A FISH USED FOR FOOD HERRING, A FISH USED FOR FOOD AND AS BAIT FOR LOBSTERS. AND AS BAIT FOR LOBSTERS. >> THIS WILL BE A SIMILAR TODAY >> THIS WILL BE A SIMILAR TODAY TO WHAT WE'RE WORKING IN THIS TO WHAT WE'RE WORKING IN THIS BILL BRIGHT HAS BEEN BILL BRIGHT HAS BEEN THE HERRING BUSINESS HERE FOR THE HERRING BUSINESS HERE FOR 40 YEARS. 40 YEARS. >> TO ACTUALLY BE A GOOD >> TO ACTUALLY BE A GOOD FISHERMAN, YOU HAVE TO BE FISHERMAN, YOU HAVE TO BE COMFORTABLE BEING, COMFORTABLE BEING, UNCOMFORTABLE. UNCOMFORTABLE. IF YOU NEED FINANCIAL SECURITY, IF YOU NEED FINANCIAL SECURITY, FISHING IS NOT FOR YOU. FISHING IS NOT FOR YOU. >> HOW MANY HERRING AND POUNDS >> HOW MANY HERRING AND POUNDS WILL YOU EACH CATCH THIS YEAR? WILL YOU EACH CATCH THIS YEAR? >> YOU THINK WAS MADE? >> YOU THINK WAS MADE? MAYBE £1,000,000, BUT ON A GOOD MAYBE £1,000,000, BUT ON A GOOD YEAR BEFORE WE WOULD CATCH £10 YEAR BEFORE WE WOULD CATCH £10 MILLION. MILLION. >> HIGHER INSURANCE RATES >> HIGHER INSURANCE RATES AND FUEL COSTS EATEN INTO AND FUEL COSTS EATEN INTO PROFIT MARGINS AND SHRINKING PROFIT MARGINS AND SHRINKING STOCKS OF FISH LIKELY CAUSED STOCKS OF FISH LIKELY CAUSED BY CLIMATE CHANGE MEAN BY CLIMATE CHANGE MEAN DRAMATICALLY LOWER GOVERNMENT DRAMATICALLY LOWER GOVERNMENT CAPS ON WHAT THEY CAN CATCH. CAPS ON WHAT THEY CAN CATCH. >> THE GOVERNMENT SAYS THAT THE >> THE GOVERNMENT SAYS THAT THE HERRING FISHERY OVERFISHED. HERRING FISHERY OVERFISHED. DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT? DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT? I WOULDN'T AGREE WITH THAT NOW. I WOULDN'T AGREE WITH THAT NOW. I MEAN, NOBODY HAS I MEAN, NOBODY HAS MORE INVESTED THAN ME AND, MORE INVESTED THAN ME AND, STEVE, AND NOBODY CARES STEVE, AND NOBODY CARES MORE ABOUT THIS FISHERY MORE ABOUT THIS FISHERY AND NOBODY CARES MORE ABOUT AND NOBODY CARES MORE ABOUT THE OCEAN. THE OCEAN. >> WE DO. >> WE DO. SINCE 1976, FEDERAL MARINE SINCE 1976, FEDERAL MARINE OBSERVERS, THESE HAVE BEEN PUT OBSERVERS, THESE HAVE BEEN PUT ON COMMERCIAL FISHING VESSELS ON COMMERCIAL FISHING VESSELS TO COLLECT DATA TO HELP SET TO COLLECT DATA TO HELP SET FISHING GUIDELINES. FISHING GUIDELINES. THEY'RE TAKING NOTES. THEY'RE TAKING NOTES. THEY'RE TAKING HITS ON THEY'RE TAKING HITS ON WHAT TYPE OF FISH WHAT TYPE OF FISH YOU'RE BRINGING IN WHILE YOU'RE BRINGING IN WHILE THEY'RE TAKING THEIR BACK THEY'RE TAKING THEIR BACK IN AND WHAT TIME YOU SET. IN AND WHAT TIME YOU SET. WHERE ARE YOU SET, WHERE WHERE ARE YOU SET, WHERE YOU HAUL. YOU HAUL. HOW MUCH TOE ARE YOU HAVE? HOW MUCH TOE ARE YOU HAVE? AND THEN THEY'RE ACTUALLY THEN AND THEN THEY'RE ACTUALLY THEN THEY ACTUALLY HOW MUCH YOU HAVE THEY ACTUALLY HOW MUCH YOU HAVE AND WHAT YOU HAVE FOR SOMETIMES AND WHAT YOU HAVE FOR SOMETIMES DAYS AT SEA. DAYS AT SEA. >> THEY'RE IN CLOSE QUARTERS >> THEY'RE IN CLOSE QUARTERS WITH THE FISHERMEN. WITH THE FISHERMEN. AND WHEN I FIND THAT FISH AND WHEN I FIND THAT FISH ARE ALMOST LIKE FIREMEN, ARE ALMOST LIKE FIREMEN, THEY HAVE TO RESPOND INSTANTLY. THEY HAVE TO RESPOND INSTANTLY. >> EVEN SHARING BUNK BEDS, >> EVEN SHARING BUNK BEDS, A TINY CABIN. A TINY CABIN. >> SO THEY'RE IN WITH YOUR >> SO THEY'RE IN WITH YOUR GUYS, RIGHT? GUYS, RIGHT? AND WITH THE GUYS THREE YEARS AND WITH THE GUYS THREE YEARS AGO, FEDERAL REGULATORS LOOKING AGO, FEDERAL REGULATORS LOOKING TO EXPAND COVERAGE OF OBSERVERS TO EXPAND COVERAGE OF OBSERVERS AT SEA MOVED TO REQUIRE AT SEA MOVED TO REQUIRE SOME HERRING. SOME HERRING. FISHERMEN TO DIRECTLY PAY FISHERMEN TO DIRECTLY PAY OBSERVER SALARIES. OBSERVER SALARIES. UP TO $700 A DAY. UP TO $700 A DAY. >> WE DON'T MIND TAKING >> WE DON'T MIND TAKING OBSERVERS, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE OBSERVERS, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE FOR DECADES NOW, BUT TO BE TOLD FOR DECADES NOW, BUT TO BE TOLD TO FOR IT JUST ISN'T RIGHT. TO FOR IT JUST ISN'T RIGHT. >> BY ONE ESTIMATE, THAT COULD >> BY ONE ESTIMATE, THAT COULD TOP 20% OF THE REVENUE OF A TOP 20% OF THE REVENUE OF A FISHERMAN'S CATCH, WHICH FISHERMAN'S CATCH, WHICH IS NEVER A GUARANTEE. IS NEVER A GUARANTEE. >> SO ON SOME TRIPS, >> SO ON SOME TRIPS, THE OBSERVER COULD BE THE THE OBSERVER COULD BE THE HIGHEST PAID. HIGHEST PAID. WITHOUT WITHOUT A DOUBT. WITHOUT WITHOUT A DOUBT. SO AT SOME POINT, I MAY NOT SO AT SOME POINT, I MAY NOT MAKE A HERRING TRIP IF I GOT MAKE A HERRING TRIP IF I GOT TO, YOU KNOW, TAKE A MONITOR TO, YOU KNOW, TAKE A MONITOR AND PAY FOR IT BECAUSE IT MIGHT AND PAY FOR IT BECAUSE IT MIGHT NOT BE IT TO ME AND MY CREW. NOT BE IT TO ME AND MY CREW. >> BRIGHT AND AXELSSON SAY >> BRIGHT AND AXELSSON SAY THE RULE COULD DRIVE OUT THE RULE COULD DRIVE OUT OF BUSINESS. OF BUSINESS. CONGRESS NEVER MENTIONED CONGRESS NEVER MENTIONED EXPLICITLY IN THE LAW ANYTHING EXPLICITLY IN THE LAW ANYTHING ABOUT HAVING THEM PAY OBSERVER ABOUT HAVING THEM PAY OBSERVER SALARIES. SALARIES. YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT THE YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT FORCING GOVERNMENT FORCING MORE FISHERMEN TO PAY THEIR OWN MORE FISHERMEN TO PAY THEIR OWN INSPECTORS? INSPECTORS? ME AND AROUND ME IS CONCERNED ME AND AROUND ME IS CONCERNED ABOUT THAT. ABOUT THAT. HIGHLY CONCERNED ABOUT THAT HIGHLY CONCERNED ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THE MARGINS ARE SO BECAUSE THE MARGINS ARE SO TIGHT RIGHT NOW. TIGHT RIGHT NOW. THE FISHERMEN TURNED FOR HELP THE FISHERMEN TURNED FOR HELP TO ONE OF THE COUNTRY'S MOST TO ONE OF THE COUNTRY'S MOST EXPERIENCED SUPREME COURT EXPERIENCED SUPREME COURT LAWYERS, PAUL CLEMENT, WHO'S LAWYERS, PAUL CLEMENT, WHO'S ARGUED OVER 100 CASES THIS ARGUED OVER 100 CASES THIS FALL. FALL. HE'LL ASK THE JUSTICES TO DOWN HE'LL ASK THE JUSTICES TO DOWN THE POLICY. THE POLICY. >> SO IF CONGRESS THINKS THIS >> SO IF CONGRESS THINKS THIS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT THERE REALLY IMPORTANT THAT THERE BE A MONITOR ON EVERY SHIP, BE A MONITOR ON EVERY SHIP, WELL, THEN IT CAN PAY FOR WELL, THEN IT CAN PAY FOR A MONITOR ON EVERY SHIP. A MONITOR ON EVERY SHIP. CONGRESS DID. CONGRESS DID. REGULATORS AT THE NATIONAL REGULATORS AT THE NATIONAL MARINE FISHERIES SERVICE MARINE FISHERIES SERVICE THE POWER TO SET RULES AS MAY THE POWER TO SET RULES AS MAY BE NECESSARY TO DO THEIR JOBS. BE NECESSARY TO DO THEIR JOBS. THE GOVERNMENT ARGUES IN COURT THE GOVERNMENT ARGUES IN COURT DOCUMENTS THAT BROAD LANGUAGE DOCUMENTS THAT BROAD LANGUAGE IMPLICITLY ALLOWS THE AGENCY IMPLICITLY ALLOWS THE AGENCY TO HAVE FISHERMEN PAY TO HAVE FISHERMEN PAY THEIR OBSERVERS. THEIR OBSERVERS. WE WANT CONGRESS TRYING WE WANT CONGRESS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THE NITTY GRITTY TO FIGURE OUT THE NITTY GRITTY DETAILS OF LITERALLY DETAILS OF LITERALLY EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING. >> MEREDITH MOORE IS WITH >> MEREDITH MOORE IS WITH THE OCEAN CONSERVANCY AND SITS THE OCEAN CONSERVANCY AND SITS ON THE NATION'S MARINE ON THE NATION'S MARINE FISHERIES ADVISORY COMMITTEE. FISHERIES ADVISORY COMMITTEE. >> CONGRESS HAS DELEGATED THESE >> CONGRESS HAS DELEGATED THESE SORTS OF AUTHORITIES TO THE SORTS OF AUTHORITIES TO THE FEDERAL AGENCIES TO BE EXPERTS FEDERAL AGENCIES TO BE EXPERTS AND MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE AND MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE PROTECTING HUMAN HEALTH PROTECTING HUMAN HEALTH AND SAFETY AND THE ENVIRONMENT. AND SAFETY AND THE ENVIRONMENT. IS IT FAIR FOR FISHERMEN, IS IT FAIR FOR FISHERMEN, IN YOUR VIEW, HAVE TO PAY IN YOUR VIEW, HAVE TO PAY THE SALARIES OF THESE THE SALARIES OF THESE OBSERVERS? OBSERVERS? I THINK IT'S IN LINE WITH THE I THINK IT'S IN LINE WITH THE AUTHORITIES THAT THE GOVERNMENT AUTHORITIES THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO SHARE HAS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO SHARE THOSE BURDENS. THOSE BURDENS. IF THE FISHERMEN WIN, IT COULD IF THE FISHERMEN WIN, IT COULD HAVE A MAJOR IMPACT FAR BEYOND HAVE A MAJOR IMPACT FAR BEYOND THE OCEAN. THE OCEAN. >> THIS IS REALLY ABOUT THE >> THIS IS REALLY ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT WITHOUT EXPRESS GOVERNMENT WITHOUT EXPRESS AUTHORIZATION FROM CONGRESS, AUTHORIZATION FROM CONGRESS, IMPOSING SOME ADDITIONAL HUGE IMPOSING SOME ADDITIONAL HUGE COSTS ON THE INDUSTRY. COSTS ON THE INDUSTRY. CLEMENT SAYS THE GOVERNMENT'S CLEMENT SAYS THE GOVERNMENT'S ENTIRE SYSTEM OF REGULATIONS ENTIRE SYSTEM OF REGULATIONS FROM HEALTH TO ENVIRONMENTAL FROM HEALTH TO ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, EVEN TAX COLLECTION PROTECTION, EVEN TAX COLLECTION ,GIVES FEDERAL AGENCIES TOO ,GIVES FEDERAL AGENCIES TOO MUCH POWER, NOT DIRECTLY MUCH POWER, NOT DIRECTLY BY CONGRESS. BY CONGRESS. >> SO THIS IS ABOUT GRAY AREAS. >> SO THIS IS ABOUT GRAY AREAS. THIS IS ABOUT GRAY AREAS. THIS IS ABOUT GRAY AREAS. BUT THE PROBLEM IS, ONCE BUT THE PROBLEM IS, ONCE YOU SAY THAT THERE ARE GRAY YOU SAY THAT THERE ARE GRAY AREAS AND THEN THERE'S AREAS AND THEN THERE'S A DIFFERENT RULE, PEOPLE START A DIFFERENT RULE, PEOPLE START SEEING GRAY EVERYWHERE. SEEING GRAY EVERYWHERE. FOR NEARLY 40 YEARS, FOR NEARLY 40 YEARS, THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID IN THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID IN DISPUTES OVER FEDERAL DISPUTES OVER FEDERAL REGULATIONS THAT JUDGES SHOULD REGULATIONS THAT JUDGES SHOULD DEFER TO POLICY EXPERTS WHEN DEFER TO POLICY EXPERTS WHEN THE LAW IS UNCLEAR. THE LAW IS UNCLEAR. THE PRACTICE HAS BECOME KNOWN THE PRACTICE HAS BECOME KNOWN AS THE CHEVRON DOCTRINE NAMED AS THE CHEVRON DOCTRINE NAMED AFTER THE 1984 CASE. AFTER THE 1984 CASE. SEVERAL OF THE COURTS WANT IT SEVERAL OF THE COURTS WANT IT OVERTURNED. OVERTURNED. >> I DO THINK THAT IF YOU RID >> I DO THINK THAT IF YOU RID OF CHEVRON, YOU WOULD OF CHEVRON, YOU WOULD ESSENTIALLY FORCE YOU'D MAKE ESSENTIALLY FORCE YOU'D MAKE THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH A LITTLE LESS POWERFUL. A LITTLE LESS POWERFUL. >> YOU'D MAKE THE OTHER >> YOU'D MAKE THE OTHER TWO BRANCHES A LITTLE MORE TWO BRANCHES A LITTLE MORE POWERFUL. POWERFUL. >> SO WHAT WE LOSE WITH THIS >> SO WHAT WE LOSE WITH THIS CASE IS THE GROUNDING OF OUR CASE IS THE GROUNDING OF OUR GOVERNMENT IN EXPERTISE GOVERNMENT IN EXPERTISE AND SCIENCE IN THE WAY THAT WE AND SCIENCE IN THE WAY THAT WE INTERPRET LAWS ALL OVER INTERPRET LAWS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. THE COUNTRY. >> NOW WE'RE TAKING THE FISH >> NOW WE'RE TAKING THE FISH OUT OF THE SEA AS BILL BRIGHT OUT OF THE SEA AS BILL BRIGHT PREPARES FOR HERRING SEASON PREPARES FOR HERRING SEASON IN NOVEMBER. IN NOVEMBER. AND STEPHEN AXELSSON OUT AND STEPHEN AXELSSON OUT THE BIGGEST CATCH. THE BIGGEST CATCH. >> SOMETIMES THEY MOVE AND YOU >> SOMETIMES THEY MOVE AND YOU GOT TO GO FIND THEM AGAIN. GOT TO GO FIND THEM AGAIN. BOTH MEN SAY THEIR MINDS BOTH MEN SAY THEIR MINDS WILL BE ON THE SUPREME COURT. WILL BE ON THE SUPREME COURT. JUST EXPECT TO SEE THEM THERE. JUST EXPECT TO SEE THEM THERE. ARE YOU BOTH GOING TO BE ARE YOU BOTH GOING TO BE IN WASHINGTON WHEN THIS WHEN IN WASHINGTON WHEN THIS WHEN THIS THING IS HEARD, DO THIS THING IS HEARD, DO YOU THINK ARE YOU GOING TO TAKE YOU THINK ARE YOU GOING TO TAKE IT IN FULL? IT IN FULL? PROBABLY BEFORE PROBABLY